Italian man (1): Well, it is the most satisfying thing I have been reading up to now. I have been searching through the Tibetan Books of the Dead, but it wasn’t enough, and this is beyond that. It is really, is complete, you know? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: In your country people would like it? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): What? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: In your country, they would like these ideas? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Oh, yes. Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, this is a… I have such a keen interest in going to see what the situation is, because I haven’t been… [break] …for Venice. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Oh, Venice. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes. So it would be so fantastic to present them a platform of religion so lively. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: It is not religion. Of course, it is religion. But the religion, as it is misunderstood in European countries, that religion is a kind of faith. But it is not like that. It is science. It is fact. Religion, you have got some faith. That may not be right. It may be wrong. Just like the Christian religion, they have got faith in this way, that animal has no soul. Do you know that? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: That’s not a fact. Do you agree or not? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): I do. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Animal also has soul. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Why do they disagree, that animal has no soul? What is the point? Why do they say? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Because they don’t like to identify themselves with animals. Because if they admit that animals have a soul, then they have to identify…, I mean they are afraid of identifying with animals. They feel they are superior to animals. We are superior to animals, indeed, but… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: That is by intelligence. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): What? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: We are superior to animals by superior intelligence, not by… Just like a human child. His father is superior than the child because the father has got superior intelligence, not that the child has no soul. The child talks so many nonsense things, but we take it, “After all, it is child.” Nobody cares whether it is symmetrical or not, because his intelligence is not developed. So even the animals have no developed intelligence, that does not mean it has no soul. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): It does. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. The evolution of different types of body means evolution of intelligence. Just like a flower: in the bud stage, the flower is there, but the fragrance or the beauty has not yet developed. So unless the things are there, how it can develop? Similarly, the soul is there in every living entity, but according to the development of the body, evolution of the body, the intelligence becomes manifest. Otherwise, what is the meaning of education? Education means to develop the intelligence. That is education. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Are you thinking of formal education now? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Any education. You train a child to the standard of that education and he will develop his intelligence. A child who does not know what is what, the father says, “This is… My dear child, it is watch.” Once, twice, thrice, you call, “Watch, watch, watch,” he learns, “This is watch.” [aside:] Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [Hindi to Indians passing] So one has to awaken the intelligence. So that supreme intelligence is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one comes to the point of supreme intelligence, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like a rose flower, when it comes to the full blooming stage, it is very beautiful, fragrant, like that. So when a living entity comes to the understanding of his constitutional position—what he is actually—and acts like that, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is full development. That is called buddhi-yogam. Buddhi is there, intelligence is there, and when it is fully developed for understanding Kṛṣṇa, that is called buddhi-yogam. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Buddhi-yogam. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddhi-yogam. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is described, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti [Bg. 10.10]. Buddhi-yogam means the intelligence, but… [aside:] Don’t come near. The intelligence which gets the living entity back to home, back to Godhead. That is called buddhi-yogam. Any yoga system means connecting link with the Supreme. When we speak of buddhi-yogam, that is the ultimate yoga. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata antar-ātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. All different types of yoga practice, the most important and topmost yoga practice is to think of Kṛṣṇa always within oneself. That is being practiced. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. The topmost yoga system. [japa] [break] You are experienced. Try to understand this philosophy and give it to your country. Your country is a most important country in Europe. Roman civilization. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes. Yes. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Greek civilization, Roman civilization is the beginning of European civilization. So your position is very nice. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Well, yes. When I was a child I was brought up to go to the mass every morning, and I used to answer in Latin, you know, and serve the priest. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes. Even twice a day until the age of fourteen, and then we went to catechism. And then I left, I left alone, you know, by my own will. [break] It would be fantastic to go back with a background of…, with the knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and talk to them about Kṛṣṇa. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [break] …this boy, he is going to develop our Italian center, Rome. [break] ¶ comment
Italian man (1): …the personal and impersonal features of Kṛṣṇa. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Kṛṣṇa, being at the same time infinite expansion of energy and also being form, a person. Not a person like us. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes, person. Originally He is person. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): In the heart, you know. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: That is another expansion of Kṛṣṇa. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Another explanation. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Another expansion. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes. Another expansion. Oh, I see. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Localized. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Oh, localized. I see. I see it. But would you please tell me… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Just like the sun or the moon. There is the sun-god or the moon-god within the planet. That is the original. And then the sun globe, it is localized. And then the sunshine and the moonshine. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa [Hindi] [break] …what is impersonal and personal? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: What is that? Repeat it, what I have said. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): This way, if I understand what is personal and impersonal? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes, what is that personal and impersonal? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Is that Kṛṣṇa also has a… He’s a person. He is not only all-pervading, abstract energy. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: He is all-pervading. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes, but He also is a person. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Not also. He is person. This all-pervasive influence or all-pervasive feature is His expansion of energy. The same example: The sunshine is the expansion of energy of the sun globe, and the sun globe is the place for the sun-god. The sun-god is a person, and sun globe is the place where this sun-god lives, and sunshine is the expansion of the energy of the sun globe. Try to understand it very… Because this question is very complicated. People cannot understand. You try to understand this. God, Kṛṣṇa, is originally a person. Brahmeti bhagavān iti… Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān [SB 1.2.11]. Just like if you want to see the sun-god, there is a person. His name is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, Vivasvān. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. He is a person. Now, you cannot see the person so easily. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes. Exactly. I wanted to ask you about Kṛṣṇa in the heart. Could you tell us something about His physiognomy. His physiognomy. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. His physiognomy is sac-cid-ānanda vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. That we can understand. Sac-cid-ānanda. He is eternal, He is full of knowledge and He is blissful. Sac-cid-ānanda. Your body, my body is just opposite. It is not eternal; it is temporary. And it is full of ignorance. Therefore we require knowledge. [aside:] Little away, yes. So this is full of ignorance, and there are so many miseries. So Kṛṣṇa hasn’t got a body like this. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, Your body is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. So we can distinguish what is Kṛṣṇa’s body and what is our body. [break] …understand. Try to understand, that what is the nature. That is called spiritual body. So we have got also similar body, but very small, very small. That is covered by this material body. And because in the spiritual body I am person, I have got form, therefore the material elements have taken a form. Just like when your coat is made, it is made according to your body. Because you have got hand, so the coat has got a hand. But the hand of the coat is not real. The real hand is within the coat. Dehino ‘smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Within. These foolish people, they do not understand. They take, “This is hand. This is hand.” He does not know that this hand is artificial, outward. Real hand is within. This is their misconception. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Try to understand. These are very important question. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because within the coat the real man is there, therefore the dress has assumed two hands, two legs, one collar, like that. But this is false, like dress. Real… Therefore every living entity has got form. It is not formless. This less-intelligent class of men, because they cannot see the form… It is so small. It is so small that if you divide the top portion of your hair into ten thousand parts… ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Your one hair into ten thousand parts. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): What did you say? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: The top portion, tip of the hair, the point, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the form of the soul. It is such minute, small… Because they cannot see, they say it is nirākāra. No, it is not nirākāra. It is there. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Can I ask you one question? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): When we see Kṛṣṇa in us, in our hearts, the moment Kṛṣṇa comes, the moment put a link with Him, the moment that the link takes place with Kṛṣṇa in our hearts… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is always within your heart. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes. But at the moment that our self, our soul opens itself and succeeds in putting a link… [break] I mean, I’m sorry, I mean… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: He has this feature. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): It is a matter of words. It is difficult to explain this. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. He cannot create God. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): No, of course not. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: These Māyāvādī philosophers, they create God. Anthropomorphism. What is that anthropomorphism? ¶ comment
Satsvarūpa: To imagine that God has a form. Man imagines God, not that God exists originally, but man imagines God based on his own form. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anthropomorphism it is called. They create a form, but that is not the fact. God has His eternal form. That I explained. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means form. And it is sac-cid-ānanda, means eternal, full of knowledge and… Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. People are accepting, because that is real knowledge. And nobody reads other books so carefully. And this Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world. All big, big scholars, big, big philosophers, theologist, they read, because that is real knowledge. That is the proof. It is real knowledge. Cit. Sac-cit. And one who is giving real knowledge, it is natural conclusion, He has got eternal body. We cannot give real knowledge, because we forget. As we change our body, we forget. Just like at night we dream, but we forget the body, this body. In another body we go to some dreamland. So because we change body, therefore we forget. And because Kṛṣṇa is giving knowledge perfect, past, present and future, therefore it means that He has got eternal body. This is the proof. One should understand everything with logic. Is it not? We forget because we have no eternal body. Last birth, what I was, what you were, we have forgotten, because changed body. Death, death means forgetting. So because Kṛṣṇa is giving perfect knowledge of past, future and present, therefore it is to be understood that He has got eternal body. And eternal body means there is no misery. Misery means janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9], to take birth, to die… [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. …and to suffer from disease, to suffer from old age. These are the miseries. So because Kṛṣṇa hasn’t got this temporary body, therefore He is not suffering from these things. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, you will see always, young man. You will never see Kṛṣṇa’s picture as old man, because He is eternal body. This is the conclusion. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): In our heart. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No, no, heart or not heart. Your heart or not heart, but Kṛṣṇa’s position is like that. He has got eternal body. He is blissful, because there is no miseries. Temporary body means there is misery, so many miseries. At least these four miseries: birth, death, old age and disease. So eternal body has no such miseries. Therefore it is blissful. Therefore it is full of knowledge. As soon as you get your eternal body, which is already there within this temporary body, then you also become blissful and full of knowledge. That is oneness: one in quality. Kṛṣṇa has got this body, eternal, blissful, full of knowledge. So when you get this body, then you are becoming equal in quality, not in quantity. Your question is answered? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: If you have got any doubt, you can still ask. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Maybe… May I emphasize… [break] ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: We have got your photo. So… But the difference is that your photograph and you are different. Because the photograph is of the temporary body, therefore it is not absolute. But Kṛṣṇa, being everything, Kṛṣṇa’s photograph is also Kṛṣṇa. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes, okay, thank you. Thank you. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Is it all right? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes, thank you. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is everything. So His photograph is also Kṛṣṇa. It is not that foolish people, they worship a photograph. No. It is reality. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): It is…? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: It is reality. Yes. [break] Kṛṣṇa is everything. [to devotees:] Can you explain? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Who can explain? Explain, yes. ¶ comment
Yaśomatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa says, raso ‘ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi… [Bg. 7.8]. [break] ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. Because this material world means these elements—this earth, this water, then fire, then air, then sky—five elements. So what are these elements? These elements are Kṛṣṇa’s energy. Bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Material energy. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Material energy, yes. And the living entities, they are also energy, spiritual energy. Two energies. Two energies means just like fire. Fire has got two energies: heat and light. Similarly, the whole creation is combination of Kṛṣṇa’s energy. Therefore everything is Kṛṣṇa. Is it not? Yes. Just like you take milk. From milk you prepare so many milk preparation. You prepare yogurt, you prepare ghee, you prepare rasagullā, you prepare burfī and so many others. But therefore, actually, all of them are milk. This is the… Under different combination only. In the milk, if you put some sour thing, it becomes yogurt. But it is milk. And that sour thing also, which is put into the milk, that is also Kṛṣṇa. [japa] [break] Why He is originally person, try to understand. And all these energies are imperson. Just like I am a person, you are a person. But when I… My temperature is imperson. Is it not? I have got temperature, if you put thermometer, that is imperson. So person is the origin, and the impersonal temperature is the energy. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): I see. Yes, yes. And the difference between the personalist…, I mean the…, and the personalist is that the impersonalist does not believe… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No, no, believe… You don’t believe or not believe, it doesn’t matter. We are explaining science. If somebody says, “No, there is no temperature,” that is foolishness. There is temperature. How can you say there is no temperature? There is temperature. Even you go to the water, there is temperature. Everywhere. Because the elements are all there, bhūmir āpo analo vāyu… The beginning is the ākāśa, ether. The ether is in the air, the air is in the fire, the fire is in the water, and the earth is in the water. This is…, this way. And in the earth you will find everything. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): The earth…, the hearth? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: The earth. Earth. You will find air, ether, water, fire, everything. And the final state, it is ether only, originally. So suppose I am breathing. It is ethereal. But so many things are coming. If I am contaminated, by touching my breathing, you will be contaminated, and it will come out as disease. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Can you repeat, please? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Just like this breathing is ethereal, but if there is potency… There is potency. So by being contaminated by my breathing, you become contaminated, and it comes out again as disease. So the ethereal composition is the origin. Then gradually it develops: ether into air, air into fire, fire into water, water into earth. [break] …consideration of the gross thing. How the gross thing coming into existence from subtle thing, they do not know it. That is less intelligent. They cannot think very, what is called, minutely. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): And beyond ether? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Just like the same example: the breathing is coming from a person. So breathing is impersonal, but it is coming from the person. Similarly, originally God is person. In the Bhagavad-gītā everything is explained, “From Me. I am the origin of everything.” Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. This is… This has to be…, how everything is coming from Him. And if we understand how it is coming, then we have to accept that it is coming from the person, not from the imperson. Imperson is secondary manifestation of the person. Just like the fire. Fire is the origin. It has got a form. But secondary manifestation of the fire is heat and light. Not that… ¶ comment
Italian man (1): The second manifestation of fire is heat and light? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: …is heat and light. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): And fire is…? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Fire is the origin. That is form. That is not formless. Heat may be formless. Light may be formless. But fire is not formless. [aside:] Thik hai? If you have got intelligence, then from the formless, you can approach the form. Just like the sunshine, shining is formless. If you have got form, go to the sun planet. And if you go to the sun planet, you will see the sun-god. But they cannot go. They cannot appreciate that there is a person who is known as sun-god. But it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham… The name is also given, what is the name of that person. [break] ¶ comment
Indian man (1): …planet, recently what we read from the papers. There is so… So far, nobody tells us that there is a moon-god over there. Although they have gone to particular one place only, or two, three places only, not the whole one, but still, nobody comes from. They say nobody is there and… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: But these bodies are imperfect. They are not perfect. The moon may not be exposed to them, these rascals. Because a king is not exposed to the ordinary man. Unless one is fit to see him, king is not exposed. That does not mean there is no king. If some rascal says, “There is no president, there is no king,” that is his rascaldom, not that there is no king, no president. He cannot see. He has not that qualification. Is that correct? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Yes. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. One who has no qualification, he says, because he could not see somebody, he sees, “There is no such existence.” Is that good conclusion? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Good psychology. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. He is not fit to be seen by the great personality. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. You cannot see the sun-god. Does it mean there is no sun-god? What is the value of your eyes? It is imperfect. You are seeing the sun just like a disc, but it is fourteen hundred thousands of times bigger than this earth. Can you see it? Then what is the power of your seeing? Whatever you are seeing, that is defective. So don’t be proud of seeing. What is your eyes? What is the value of your eyes? You cannot see even the eyelid. Can you see the eyelid, although it is attached to your eyeball? So what is the power? Why you are so much proud of seeing? First of all, understand that “I am so defective, I cannot see perfectly, properly.” And you want to see God with these defective eyes? ¶ comment
Indian man (2): Arjuna also says that he cannot see God. He saw the light only. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was speaking with Kṛṣṇa. Still, he said that “I cannot see You.” That is a fact. [break] Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. If you have got qualified eyes, you can see Kṛṣṇa always, twenty-four hours. So we have to qualify, purify. Sarvopādhi-vinir… [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. You are seeing. You are trying to see God as American, as Indian, as this and that. With that eyes you cannot see. When you are neither American nor Indian nor brāhmaṇa nor śūdra, you are pure spirit, then you can see. They want to remain with this designation body and want to see God. That is not possible. To enter fire you have to become fire. Otherwise, it will be not possible to enter fire. So without Brahman realization, you cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. [break] …water is the same. Quality, it is same. It is salt, salty. And the whole ocean is also salty. That is tat tvam asi. “You are also salty,” if I say. If the drop of the water, I say that “This is also salty,” that is tat tvam asi. Not that he has become the whole sea. This is rascaldom. [break] …God create another ocean in the sky. Then you are God. When there is some tooth pain, you go to the doctor, and you are God. Just see how much nonsense they are. As soon as there is tooth pain, “Oh, oh. Just now I am not God, I am patient.” So these things are going on. I have seen so many gods. I have seen one that Dr. Misra. When he had a toothache, “Ohhh, oh.” You see? [break] …cheap philosophy, by misunderstanding the whole world has become atheist, all rascals. Atheist means rascal number one, mūḍhāḥ, āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. As soon as one becomes atheist, he is rascal number one. [break] ¶ comment
Indian man (1): …just in the beginning, when they are in the [indistinct] world, even the atheists… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Atheists, they say that “We have not seen God.” ¶ comment
Indian man (1): But they need support of God in the beginning. Without that, they cannot go to that transc… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is always. Therefore they are fools. They cannot become atheists. If somebody says that “I do not believe in God,” this saying will be stopped immediately by God. He cannot do anything. And that is God. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. When God comes as mṛtyuḥ, then all his talking is finished. “I don’t believe in God. There is no God,” finished. So control that death. Because death takes all your possession, your talking, your riches, your body—everything will be taken away. Now, why do you allow to…, death, overtake you? Why do you allow? If you are God, check it. ¶ comment
Indian man (2): Yes, yes, don’t allow your death to come. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you are God. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): This body is supposed to die. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Why supposed? Why supposed? That is ignorance, “supposed.” Because he cannot do anything, he suppose… Why? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Of course, we say this body is not say absolute or permanent. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Permanent, but who has made it this? You have not made. You make a permanent body. Then you are God. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): That nobody can do. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is not God. That is existence of God. You cannot do because there is higher power controlling you. God means controller. He is controlling you. You cannot do that. Therefore you are not God. There is superior controller, who does not allow to do this. You have to abide by the laws. This is commonsense reasoning. If you are being controlled, how you become God? God means the supreme controller. Is it all right? So long you will be controlled, you are not God. But where is the position that you are no more controlled? That position is never. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): It is human nature, no doubt about it. Now everybody is… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Nature? What is this nature? Nature is an agency of God by which He controls. That is nature, that “I have got a stick. I can beat you. But the stick is not beating; I am beating.” This is knowledge. And the rascal will think, “The stick is beating.” What stick has got power? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Somebody is there. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yeah, “Behind the stick there is my hand.” ¶ comment
Indian man (2): There is a medium. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣena prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]: “Under My control the nature is working.” But these rascals, they do not know. They think nature is working automatically. Even they accept, but they cannot control nature. Now, how he is God? You control nature. Suppose behind the nature there is no God. All right, you control the nature. Suppose behind this stick my hand is working. You cannot see my hand. But the control this stick, which is beating you, which is kicking you, control that. So you cannot control anything, and you have become God. So ‘ham, tat tvam asi. These slogans misused, simply misused. ¶ comment
Indian man (2): They say just something like a small degree to the people, all right, those who are coming… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Childish, childish. Therefore they have been described as mūḍhā, mūḍhā. Mūḍhā means a child; they are foolish. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhāmāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. [break] …nābhijānāti prakṛtiṁ mohiniṁ śritaḥ. Prakṛtiṁ mohiniṁ śritaḥ. What is that verse? ¶ comment
Devotee: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto mama-bhūta maheśvaram. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. [break] …says, bhūmir āpo analo vayuḥ. This water is Kṛṣṇa’s energy. So how can you refute it? Kṛṣṇa says, “It is My energy.” ¶ comment
Indian man (3): It is somebody’s energy. That is definite. Because somebody is controlling it. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No, no, not controlling. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): You have to believe or imagine some entity. It may be Kṛṣṇa or it… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No, no, how can you disbelieve? First of all, thing is how can you disbelieve? Believe or not believe, that is another question. How you can… This water has come from some source. So what is that source? ¶ comment
Yaśomatīnandana: By our logical research we can come to Bhagavad-gītā and find out Kṛṣṇa is the only person in the whole world who says that “This comes from Me.” ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. Water comes from your body, perspiration. So why not from Kṛṣṇa’s body? Simple reasoning. [break] …ānanda-vigrahaḥ. [break] …tap produces water. An inanimate object, a small material thing, it produces water. And Kṛṣṇa cannot produce such water? [break] …potency. They are explained. But because we do not go to the right teacher, we do not understand. That is the difficulty. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): But the teachers give different interpretation of the same thing. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No. The same thing means he is a rascal teacher. He is not teacher; he is cheater. When a cheater takes the place of a teacher, he explains differently. And when a teacher is there, he will explain rightly. Where is the difficulty? I have several times said that “Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā?” There is not a single line which is very difficult to understand. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]: “I first of all said this philosophy to Vivasvan, the sun-god.” So where is the difficulty to understand this line? Where is the difficulty? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): No difficulty in understanding. Interpretation… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Why they should interpret? Interpretation is required when there is no understanding. If the matter is clearly understood, why interpretation? This is rascaldom. Everyone understands this is called glass. And where is the use of interpretation? Here is a glass. Everyone can understand. Or spectacle. “No, no. This is meaning this.” Why? If the thing is clearly understood, there is no question of interpretation. You cannot give. Suppose if you go to the court, if the thing is clearly understood that “This man has committed this criminal activity. He should be punished,” so where is the difficulty? No. If somebody… “No, no. This ‘He should be punished’ means not now; after three hundred years he should be punished.” Is that interpretation? He should be punished immediately. That’s all. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): It’s not like that. The material thing we can see from our… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: You are material, you are not spiritual. You are a material fool. Why do you interpret foolishly? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): There’s no doubt about it. ¶ comment
Indian man (2): According to their brain and knowledge, they must have… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: That means rubbish brain, rubbish brain. You go, interpret and change the law. You go in the law court and you interpret in your own way. Can you interpret in the law court, “Sir, I have got a different interpretation”? “Get out. Get out, rascal, from this…” ¶ comment
Indian man (1): No, no. Even the judges in the Supreme Court in India, they go after the interpretations, they go and they become also one with the… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is extraordinarily. When the meaning of the law is not very clear, that takes place. But when the thing is very clear, there is no question of interpretation. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Why there is a fight? Because both the things, both the lawyers, they take it in different way and so they come to the judge. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: That’s right. But it is not different in such a way that you call a spectacle a something else. ¶ comment
Indian man (4): Bhagavad-gītā is really… ¶ comment
Yaśomatīnandana: Judge decides who is the right one. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes, but it said in the Bhagavad-gītā clearly. It is said clearly, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān: “I told this philosophy to Vivasvān.” Where is the difficulty to understand? Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]: “In the dharma-kṣetre, kuru-kṣetre, two parties willing to fight, they assembled.” Where is the difficulty to understand? Why these rascals should interpret in a different way? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): These are all… They are not interpreting that particular word. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: They are doing. ¶ comment
Yaśomatīnandana: “There is nothing like Kurukṣetra,” they say. ¶ comment
Indian man (4): That is another group of people, their own brain creation. That we should not… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: What right you have got to interpret? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Whatever it is they are saying, material thing we can, we should not interpret, and we cannot. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: But you are, after all, material. You are not spiritual. In order to get you on the spiritual platform, things are being spoken by Kṛṣṇa. ¶ comment
Indian man (4): And to understand something we must have… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: How you become all of a sudden spiritual? What is that spiritual? You do not understand what is spiritual, and you say, “It is spiritual.” ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Well, something which we cannot see by our own eyes, something which we cannot… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Then why do you interpret if you cannot see with your own eyes? You are blind. Why should you interpret? A blind man is interpreting? What is this nonsense? ¶ comment
Yaśomatīnandana: It is just like Kṛṣṇa says, “I am here.” ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: The blind man is just, “Oh, the elephant is big pillar.” ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Same thing will say that elephant is only trunk. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: That’s it. This kind of interpretation, what is the meaning? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): They don’t have that complete view of the whole. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: If you are blind, you accept that “I am blind man. I cannot study what is this elephant,” that is another thing. That is good. And if you are blind and by blind eyes you, “Oh, elephant is a pillar…” ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Some other blind will say the trunk… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: So the blind man has no right to interpret. That is the point. Blind man… You are blind man. Remain as a blind man. Don’t talk nonsense. That is our protest. Why should you interpret? You are blind man. ¶ comment
Indian man (4): They should not try to, just around, create the meaning of it. ¶ comment
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how do we tell the difference between the blind man and one who can see? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Anyone can understand. Any foolish man can understand, “Here is a blind man; here is a man with eyes.” It is not very difficult. Why do you question this? One cannot see, that is blind man. Everyone knows it. ¶ comment
Yaśomatīnandana: Their interpretation is just opposing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, “I am here.” ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: That’s all. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): They have no opposition. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the main point. That is the main point, the Kaṁsa, to kill Kṛṣṇa. “Let Kṛṣṇa come out and I shall kill Him immediately.” The Kaṁsa philosophy. All these rascals, they don’t give any importance to Kṛṣṇa. All this interpretation. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Śaṅkarācārya has written the Kṛṣṇa-aṣṭakam. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya is not blind man. But those who are rascals, blind, why do they interpret? They should not interpret. [break] ¶ comment
Italian man (4): …mentioned Kṛṣṇa. This is… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is coming from Europe. Jaya. He’s also. Never mentioned. The only policy is how to kill Kṛṣṇa. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): These important writers who have been read throughout Europe, France and England, who has no importance for the moment, they have never tried to give a lifely idea of Kṛṣṇa, the pastimes and the youthfulness, and the lifeliness of this is not given. And they will take… Yes, that’s it. Yes. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Here is a foreign reader. He says. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Which book you have read? ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Well, I have read every book that can be available. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Have you read Rādhākrishnan on Bhagavad-gītā? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: He is first-class impersonalist. He is a first-class blind man. First-class blind man. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): But still, he appreciates Kṛṣṇa. He has never told any… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: How can you… ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Well, I read it, I studied it. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No, no. After all, he’s a brāhmaṇa, Hindu brāhmaṇa. How he can defy Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): On the contrary, he is also a bhakta of Kṛṣṇa, but he says that after bhakti, devotion… ¶ comment
Indian man (5): Who? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan. ¶ comment
Indian man (5): President of India. ¶ comment
Devotee: He is not known in Europe. [break] ¶ comment
Indian man (4): Our book is there in London, not Vivekananda. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. His books are rejected. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): No, he has written from a different point of view. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No. Why? What right? That is the… ¶ comment
Indian man (1): You are putting your idea. That is a bad decision. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Why he should put a different point of view? Just like Radhakrishnan says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī [Bg. 18.65], “It is not to Kṛṣṇa the person.” This is, how much rascaldom. Kṛṣṇa says, “You become My devotee,” and he interprets, “It is not to Kṛṣṇa the person.” Just see. ¶ comment
Indian man: Kṛṣṇa says, “Surrender everything.” That’s all. And they say, “No…” ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that “You surrender.” He says, “It is not to Kṛṣṇa.” Just see how much rascal he is. And if I say, then people will be angry. If I say “rascal, rascal,” then people will be angry. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): So you actually mean to say that these people who have been writing from…, taking especially from Bhagavad-gītā and explaining Bhagavad-gītā and some of other Vedic scriptures, do you think that the fact that they didn’t mention…? I have been thinking that maybe they have not talking about…, they don’t talk about Kṛṣṇa, just to say maybe they might have thought, “Well, people don’t know who is Kṛṣṇa, and therefore I only say God.” ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Why? Kṛṣṇa is there. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Or do you think that there was a purpose in their mind? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Purpose, yes: not to give importance to Kṛṣṇa. That is going on. ¶ comment
Italian man (2): And on themself only. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Not self only. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes, that rascaldom is going on. And our Society is protesting. Therefore we are enemy of everyone, because we are protesting against this: “You cannot do this. You cannot do this.” As soon as say, “Oh, why you are decrying? He is also incarnation of God.” What kinds of God? A rascal, we shall accept incarnation of God? You see? I am not so fool. Kṛṣṇa says that… What is that? Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanti anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]: “A person who is lost of his intelligence, he worships demigods.” And a person worshiping a demigod, he become God. Just see. He’s a nonsense, naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ, because he is worshiping demigod, and by worshiping demigod he became God. Where is this in the śāstra? This rascaldom is going on. First of all, anyone who worships a demigod, he is a rascal. And it is advertised, “By worshiping such and such demigod, a rascal has become God.” And we have to accept that. We are not so foolish. First of all, he is a rascal, he has no knowledge. And one who has no knowledge and rascal, and he has become God. We have to accept that. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): When the people do not find any difference between the God and demigod… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Why? That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. If you do not find any difference between me and my disciple, then you are foolish man. If you say… If you say… ¶ comment
Indian man (1): In the beginning everybody is foolish. We are born foolish. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Well, born foolish, that… He has to become intelligent. But when he talks foolishly, he remains foolish. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Well, so far he is not enlightened. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: If he talks foolishly, that means he is still foolish. He has not attained any knowledge. ¶ comment
Indian man (6): But after getting the knowledge, then knowledge means when we completely know the Supreme Personality is Lord Kṛṣṇa, then he is all right. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. ¶ comment
Indian man (6): But those who have got no knowledge about all these things, so they must be worshiping some Devī, Gaṇeśa… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: But why they take the position of a teacher? They should not take the position of a teacher. They should remain foolish, that “I have still to learn.” ¶ comment
Indian man (1): Ah, that is the significance. They should not say that “I am already perfect.” That is the thing. They should not claim like that. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: That is our protest, that “You are a foolish. Why you are taking the position of a teacher? You are foolish. You are rascal. You don’t take the position of a teacher. Then you are a cheater. First of all make your life…” Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari kara paropakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]: “First of all make your life successful. Then you become a teacher.” Paropakāra. You are a fool number one and you are going to make paropakāra? Daridra-nārāyaṇa. [laughter] [chuckles] [break] …when they take the position of teacher, they not only do harm to themselves but to others. So our protest is that “You are a fool, rascal. You go to hell. Why you induce others to go to hell?” ¶ comment
Indian man (1): They want some companions. [laughter] ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Why, why, why? This is very dangerous. If I know that “I am blind,” why should I ask other blind man, “All right, you come behind me. I shall cross you the ocean”? Why this cheating? You say that “I am blind man. You are also blind man. So I cannot guide you.” [break] That is sincerity. That is sincerity. [break] …very much bewildered all over the world due to this rascal philosophy, that a blind man leading other blind men. So they should be delivered from this gross ignorance. [japa] [break] …say that “We have got eyes, but we are being led by Kṛṣṇa, who has got real eyes. Therefore we are safe.” ¶ comment
Indian man (1): In this world, unless they see the particular person… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: They cannot see. He is blind, how he can see? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): It is very difficult to believe in God… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No, no, believe or don’t believe. That is another thing. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): So we must have a spiritual eyes or something which is beyond our physical body. And so how…, why we are drowsing ourself, and why we are just galloping in a different way? Because everybody says it is beyond your… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No. Suppose you are blind. So you require the help of a man who has got eyes. So unless you are sure that “This man has got eyes,” why should you take care of him? That is another ignorance. If I know the man who proposes to lead me, he is also blind, why shall I take his help? ¶ comment
Indian man (1): But if he says, “I am also blind,” but just trying to find out the way… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes, so find out the right way. Find out a man who has got the eyes. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): But right…, everything is right… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No, no, “Everything is right,” that is your misfortune. You do not know. Because we know the right man is Kṛṣṇa. Everyone knows. But your misfortune. You do not accept Kṛṣṇa. You accept something else. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): No, accepting Kṛṣṇa is…, no doubt about it. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Then accept Kṛṣṇa. Everyone knows. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): But generally, while people, they don’t go blindly. That is what the difficulty is. They want open their eyes, they want to have opened their mind, and still, they wanted to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No, no, if there is doubt, if there is doubt, why shall I accept a person who is doubtful? Why not accept a person who is without doubt? Kṛṣṇa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all ācāryas. All ācāryas. So why not accept Kṛṣṇa? Why imitation Kṛṣṇa—this Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa, dini-Kṛṣṇa? That is our protest. You accept Kṛṣṇa and be led by Him. The path is clear. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): The path is…? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Clear. [break] …simply advertising that “You are searching after some leader. Take this leader, Kṛṣṇa.” This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. “We have taken. You also take.” We don’t say anybody else. No. We are fools. We do not know if there is anybody. So we are fools. Let us remain like a fool like that and tell and follow Kṛṣṇa. That’s all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don’t say that “I have got eyes. I have got a full knowledge.” No, we don’t say that. Kṛṣṇa says. That’s all. This is our version. We request that “You take Kṛṣṇa, you will be benefited.” And actually it is being done. We don’t present a false person. We present the real person, Kṛṣṇa. Now, if you are misfortunate, you cannot take, that is your business. That is your business. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): It is open, anybody can take. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] …qualification is there. Yāre dekha tāre kaha ‘kṛṣṇa’-upadeśa. You speak only Kṛṣṇa’s words. He doesn’t say, “Your word, your interpretation.” This is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa’s words. What Kṛṣṇa has said, just speak it. Then you become spiritual master. ¶ comment
And because you have become guru, you manufacture some ways and means, that is rascaldom. If you are guru, then you have to speak what Kṛṣṇa has said. That is guru. A guru does not manufacture anything. He is not guru. [break] …activities. People are eager to give service to the fellow man, and not to the animals. How much blind they are. Just see. Animals have to be sent to the slaughterhouse, and fellow man should be given help. This is daridra-nārāyaṇa seva. And what this poor animal-nārāyaṇa has done? Because poor fund of knowledge. And here it is said that both the animal and the people should be taken care of. Who is taking care of the animals? Hundreds and thousands of animals are being slaughtered daily. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Who is taking care of them? How much short-sighted they are. [break] ¶ comment
Girirāja: [reading] “…should see to the peace and comfort of his fellow man and the animals. The development of religious principles, economic development and sense gratification can then be achieved without difficulty.” ¶ comment
Girirāja: “Vasudeva expressed his sorrow…” [break] ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: …stress on Kṛṣṇa. And they have written so many commentaries on the Bhagavad-gītā. And this is the first time we have given. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Yes, very good. Marvelous. Fantastic. [break] ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: …spoken. If somebody writes an ordinary book, one studies his life, his characters and everything, the authors. And these rascal will not study Kṛṣṇa. And they will comment upon Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Nobody is interested about the life of Kṛṣṇa. ¶ comment
[break] …the authors, there is short sketch of life. But nobody writes Kṛṣṇa’s life. You see? Nobody writes. ¶ comment
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda writes. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): The same thing happens with so many other books also, because it is not known properly to proper persons… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Why do they touch of writing books? They are foolish people. Why they should attempt to write books and mislead others? That is our protest. [break] …Kṛṣṇa’s life in two big, big volumes. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): But these volumes are very short, sir. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the lowest. But they have not written even a page about Kṛṣṇa’s life. And writing comments on Bhagavad-gītā. Just see how much rascal they are. Not even a page. Rather, they deny: “There was no Kṛṣṇa.” Just see how much foolish they are, and they are writing comments on Bhagavad-gītā. That is our regret, that how these rascals dare to write on Bhagavad-gītā? [break] ¶ comment
Girirāja: “…when Vāsudeva was born…” [break] ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: …said, “When there is danger, it is a great opportunity for remembering God.” Tat te ‘nukampāṁ susamīkṣamānaḥ [SB 10.14.8]. ¶ comment
Indian man (1): And Kuntī. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kuntī said, “I shall pray for the dangerous position so that You could remain with us.” [break] ¶ comment
Girirāja: …open the snake in the original Bhāgavatam? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the kāla-sarpa, kāla. The time is Kṛṣṇa, kāla. Therefore you can compare with snake. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. Kāla means death. So snake, meeting a snake means death. So therefore He can be called snake. ¶ comment
Girirāja: “When Pūtanā was taking baby Kṛṣṇa on her lap, both Yaśodā and Rohinī were present.” [break] ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa shows by example. ¶ comment
Devotee: Would that be a young cow or a mother cow? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: Any cow. ¶ comment
Girirāja: “The child was completely washed with the urine of a cow, and the dust created by the hooves of the cows was thrown all over His body.” [break] ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: …if they kill Kṛṣṇa, then all these question does not come. You see? Because they want to kill the cows. And if he worships Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme, then he has to accept these principle. Therefore they want to kill Kṛṣṇa. ¶ comment
Devotee: So they can kill the cows. ¶ comment
Girirāja: “The transcendental body of Kṛṣṇa did not require any protection, but to instruct us on the importance of the cow, the Lord was smeared over with cow dung and washed with the urine of the cow, sprinkled with the dust up raised by the walking of the cow.” [break] ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: …otherwise, yes. We shall come ¶ comment
Satsvarūpa: Ten to six. ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: No. Why ten to six? ¶ comment
Satsvarūpa: Five-thirty? ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: At least fifteen to six. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): How lucky those will be here. I have to go today. [break] …and the construction of the… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: The whole Sāma Veda is music. Gāyanti yana-sāmagāḥ. Sāma Veda is full of music. The musical sounds, sa re ga ma pa da, this is from Sāma Veda. Yes. ¶ comment
Italian man (1): Ācchā. Sama Veda? Is it possible to obtain technical materials of theorems, the way of combining notes to make [indistinct] for the Hare Kṛṣṇa and [indistinct]… ¶ comment
Prabhupāda: These are the symbolic, sa re ga ma, sarad ṛṣi garbha, like that. Different sounds. ¶ comment